John Anthony, Omni Mastering

So how the pressure varies across several octaves is mostly a matter of taste, as you say. By the way, you could argue the same about volume: why not design pianos so that the SPL of all notes be constant all over the keyboard at the same velocity? It would be an arbitrary choice, but not necessarily the most pleasing musically (since the ear is more sensitive to some frequencies): therefore the SPL is not constant, but is designed to vary in a way that helps expressivity. Why not do this for key weight too? Since the ear can’t hear fast notes as accurately in the lower registers, why not make them slightly heavier to give them slightly more control? (since low notes have higher sustain and tend to be pedaled, control can also be more important)

Note that I’m not really arguing that graded keyboards are a must (I haven’t even tried the CP1), just saying that you shouldn’t think that graded keyboards are a bad thing based on a misinterpretation of Stanwood’s work.

Also, I have recently begun doing solo piano gigs which requires a huge step up in tone from my Yamaha S9, which when buried in a band situation got by. I tried the GX700 and was impressed by its action. I also liked the sounds – although, it appeared plinky in the upper mids, a seemingly unavoidable by product of digital pianos. Are there any digitals that don’t get thin and nasally in the mids?

Apparently, from reading your forum, I’ve gathered that there are more realistic actions, which to me means too stiff. Also, there are better sounding boards, but that they come with stiffer actions and weigh too much. I gotta have something I can carry, and the GX is already 55 pounds. Do you use the sounds on board or are you midied to a library called Ivory?

One of your responders mentioned increasing the stiffness of the GX’s action to eliminate overdriving the mids. I’d like to hear your response on that, please. How much stiffer does the action get when compensating for the plinkyness?

Here are Steve Rose’s comments from Oct 2008:
“After 2 weeks of having trouble with the RD sounding too nasal in the upper mid and generally washy when hammered, I stumbled on why. I’m over blowing the notes. I’m switching the thing to the balls-out, wack-sample too easily which is why it sound nasal (too many harmonics). Bingo! Turning the touch level up to heavy + 6 brings the instrument into my control range. Wow does it sing.”

Also, it seems that the GX may be the best compromise for my needs: Easy but fairly realistic action, reasonable weight, and excellent sound. Whaddya think? Thanks for your consideration.

PS: This board has been around for awhile. Do you know if something new and better coming out by any chance?

TS

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5125309.html

Quote from webpage:

“To a pianist, it is important that the pressure required to depress the piano keys feel uniform across the keyboard. If EVERY KEY FEELS ALIKE (my emphasis), the pianist can exert greater control over the volume of the musical tones produced, making the piano easier to play as well as allowing the pianist to play more expressively. For instance, if each key requires the same pressure to produce a given volume, the pianist can easily play a series of notes at the same volume by applying the same pressure to each key. If, on the other hand, each key requires a different pressure to produce a given volume, the pianist has the difficult task of learning how much pressure to apply to each key at a particular piano in order to play a series of notes at the same volume. Therefore it is considered desirable to build a piano action so that there is uniform “feel” in EACH key. “

Without turning on the power to the CP-1, I find that the key resistance is consistent key to key (non-graded) and therefore very predictable and “constant”. I think that the weight of the keys should be constant and perfectly predictable key to key even though the volume output may vary (i.e. the bass notes are louder). Where the volume has more potential loudness, well I’ll deal with that using the same “constant” key weight! I suppose it’s a personal preference thing, much like a carpenter who uses smaller and larger hammers (with different weights) to pound in different sized nails! Or the carpenter who just sticks to one medium sized hammer.

I find just thinking about this issue (graded vs non-graded actions) a bit complex, but my hunch is that the keyboard action should be a “constant” weight ideally….don’t you think? It’s one of the control parameters you DON’T want changing, even if only gradually up the keyboard. After all wouldn’t you want the keys to consistently be interfaced with your finger strength (which has a “constant” set range of velocity/strength capability)? This makes more sense to me, and I look forward to any interesting comments especially by piano technicians and physics-minded people!

Happy music making everyone!

Michael (Toronto)

The only convincing reason to avoid graded actions would be that it makes keyboard splits and transpositions more transparent since the action doesn’t depend on the position (but on the flip side you could argue that a graded keyboard gives you freedom to vary the action slightly by transposing).

I personally think the worries over the non-graded action on the CP5 are a little overly paranoid. And from the other direction I think the real wooden keys are nice but more for marketing. I think it really comes down to personal preference. For her, the Roland action was a bit smoother.

From a non-musician opinion on the user interface, I thought that the Roland was much simpler and more intuitive. Although I’m sure if one took the time to read through the CP5 manual, it could easily be figured out.

Thanks for the good information on your site!

“He discovered that playing a piano was like riding a bicycle: a piano that offered a consistent touch allows the player to move smoothly and effortlessly through the music, just as a paved road offers the cyclist an easy glide. In contrast, a keyboard that feels inconsistent from note to note acts as a barrier between the music and the musician, the way a potholed road forces a rider to watch for hazards rather than just relaxing and enjoying the journey.”

http://www.mvtimes.com/marthas-vineyard/news/2009/11/12/david-stanwood.php

Michael

http://www.callahanpiano.com/article_stanwood.htm

a quote from the article:

“New Touch Weight Metrology” is a method of units and measures that details how each piano action part affects the feel of the action. The system analyzes the working parts of an action to produce the cleanest, most precise touch. The goal was to make each key MORE PREDICTABLE AND THE INSTRUMENT AS EVEN AND UNIFORM AS POSSIBLE. In devising the system, David created a whole new field: “Piano Touchweight Technology.”

Michael (Toronto)

Michael (Toronto) here…. (I think we’re up to 3 Michael’s now!) I’m the one with the ADAM speakers…

I haven’t written in for a while… been busy but have also spent a LOT of time playing my CP-1… so here are some updated comments!

First, I must say that the action really grows on you in a great way… just feels slick, responsive, and for me a nice weight. A personal insight… I play a lot on acoustic pianos through the week (mostly uprights) and on a grand each Friday and Saturday at my restaurant gig which has the effect of keeping my technique up. At times I feel that my hands are ‘more alive’ than at others! When I play for 2 hour stretches at a time at the restaurant, I find my hands are stronger the next day. So when I sit at the CP-1 I find I can glide around better and ‘interface’ with the keyboard better. In other words, I feel that when your technique is ‘up’ you can take advantage of the excellent CP-1 response better. I don’t really think that the CP-1 action is lacking in anything, especially when my hand technique is ‘strong’ and ‘alert’. Some of you may interpret this as: “the CP-1 can only be played well (especially virtuosic playing) by virtuoso technique since the keyboard is lacking, maybe sluggish, etc…” NONSENSE! The CP-1 is EXTREMELY responsive and capable of amazingly fast performances and fast passages. Also fine gradations of sensitive dynamics.

On another note…. I don’t understand personally about “graded actions”. To be honest, I never really noticed that when I had a Yamaha C7 grand. Maybe I just never tuned into it closely… I’m sure the bass notes were slightly heavier than the high treble notes. Why is everyone so focused on a ‘graded’ action? In my opinion, I think I would prefer a non-graded action with a uniform touch to every single key. This makes more sense to me. I spoke to my piano technician about it and he tells me that the graded action is due to heavier hammers in the bass area are needed to move the heavier weighted bass strings gradually getting smaller up to the treble strings. Piano technicians compensate for the heavier keys by adjusting the lead weights in the keys. Here’s an interesting video by David Stanwood:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cT5GOcprEY

Personally I want my action to feel uniform in weight top to bottom. It’s like going up and down a staircase with each stair the same distance requiring the same force from my legs, therefore being “transparent” as David Stanwood says. The CP-1 feels very uniform to me top to bottom. Also it sounds a note for you even if you play with an extremely light touch (slow velocity) unlike a real grand that might not sound the note if your too light (frustrating!).

On yet another note… I love the CP-1 for more than the remarkable acoustic pianos. The digital pianos are outstanding. The DX-7 pianos sound like having a real DX-7 (I used to own one!). But by far, the possible combinations (in pairs) are a plethora of professional piano-type sonorities. I’m not sure you’ll get all the subtleties with the CP-5. I think there is also more parameter control on the CP-1 pianos. Also, the three pedal system is excellent and very sensitive.

Also, the CONVENIENCE factor of having an amazing piano in a three second startup is about as close to sitting down at an acoustic and just playing it as it comes. The controls are right in front of you (I like to tweak hammer hardness mid performance, or even change the layered sound mid performance).

As for using the money to buy a baby grand instead???? Are you kidding me? A six thousand dollar used acoustic junkpile that goes out of tune and rattles like a bucket of bolts? Needs to be tuned often… only has one sound? (not bad if you own a great acoustic, i.e. Steinway, Bechstein, etc… try 50K)

The CP-1 simply has it all and more.

The CP-1 overdelivers on the price.

Each day I am even more convinced I chose right!

It’s the centerpiece of my digital world.

Michael (Toronto)

-Preben

It just goes to show… when it comes to this topic, it’s a subjective personal opinion in the end. The economics of the music industry depends on such a debate!

Sincerely appreciate your compliments and your post has me quite motivated now to make a direct comparison as well! Will update everyone SOON!

-Adrian

I just came home from trying out a yamaha Cp5 at a Sam Ash music store. I must say, from a person who has been playing classical piano for 20+ years and recieved a masters in piano, I was very impressed with the Cp5. The wooden Keys REALLY made a difference in the action. I’d say action is similar to a medium(i mean medium as not heavy weighted like a steinway or baldwin piano) weighted acoustic piano. I’m a bit of a newbie when it comes to digital pianos, I haven’t tried out the Cp1 yet, but i have tried the roland 700 GX and I didn’t like the action as much as the cp5. Since i’m looking for a more “heavy weighted feel” I’m very curious about the action and feel of the Cp5 vs. the Kawai mp8 because if the kawai mp8 is heavier then i must get one (if i can find one)! During my undergraduate and graduate studies I’ve been playing Steinway and Baldwin pianos so I’m used to and prefer “heavy” action and feel. Adrian help! :( If you say the Kawai mp8 is heavier action and more like a steinway than the cp5 then need one!

Thanks for your awsome website and posts! I found this site just in time!

-Preben Hoegh

Regarding the A-90… Yes I have and agree that from a controller standpoint, it was one of the best ever produced. Shame that some of the MIDI control became diluted in the RD700 series but I believe the action is a moderate improvement since that time… but yes, it’s a great board, and I wish it were still available too!

Thanks

Darren

Thanks again for taking the time to express your views!

-Adrian

1. a cp-300

2. a killer computer

3. Ivory

4. with change to spare.

Do what I do….record on the cp-300 using the cp’s internal piano sound and then use your midi track to trigger a Bosendorfer, or Steinway, or whatever you have on your computer. This is what 90% of mid-size studios do.

To answer your question as to why yamaha did not go with graded….I can tell you that it’s because the cp-1 is more than just an acoustic piano. There are a few songs in our set that require wurlitzer/rhodes, and to be honest, the cp-300’s graded action is not ideal to playing electric pianos. I think yamaha assumed that the targeted buyer would want the best of both actions. I am disappointed as 90% of my sound is piano, so I won ‘t be upgrading.

Also, many digital piano actions have 3 sections of grading; heavy, medium, and light. This means there is a distinct step transitioning between these sections, instead of a constant grading across 88 keys. Do any digital piano keybeds use constant grading, with each key having slightly greater or less weight than it’s neighbor? Do any keybeds use more than 3 sections of weight?

I’ve yet to play the CP1, V-Piano, or MP8. But the V-Piano’s lack of Rhodes and Wurlitzer emulations bothers me, and the MP8 seems like investing dated technology. Adding additional sound modules and computers can be versatile but I don’t want to have to depend on that to be satisfied with a new keyboard. I did enjoy playing a Nord Stage EX 88 recently, and the Nord Piano is another interesting option.

I grew up on a nice August Forstner upright, and currently own CP70B’s, a Baldwin Electropiano, Wurlitzer 200’s, Hammond CV & A100, a Clavinet D6, and a Yamaha CS50, in addition to an old, busted K2500X and some other digital and analog synths. A large reason why I own these different instruments is for authenticity of sound quality and the way the performance is affected by the mechanics of the instruments respective actions. I’ve been considering the CP1 and CP5, along with the Nord Stage and other instruments, to get some lighter gear to transport to gigs.

I created a spreadsheet to compare the current offerings of digital pianos, as well as organ style keyboards, which is visible at the link below. Please feel free to contribute any relevant factual information to the spreadsheet.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AgBRFhaER91CdDlOX2ExVVF3OEhDemtwTDZTUlUyUnc&hl=en

Thanks for the info and commentary.
willi

Thanks for taking the time to comment – especially on this point of the CP1 action. I think many of us share your concerns with regards to the non-graded action. That’s one thing that I can’t get my head around; why did Yami opt that out? Interestingly, I played the P250 (CP300 predecessor) for many years and have the same opinion as you – combined with those internal 30W vibrations, it was definitely the best feeling Yamaha I’d experienced.

Just my opine, but I’ve always put the action/feel way ahead in terms of sound (from the board) because there are numerous ways to meet or exceed the sound quality with off board samples and/or even modeling engines. I think we’re all interested what the forthcoming CP5 will do in terms of comparison to some of the Roland models such as the GX700 but speaking for myself, take away the graded action (which the Roland has) and it very well may not pass muster.

Thanks again for sharing!

We’ve had one of our contributors here give it (SuperNatural Piano Kit) pretty high marks. I plan to buy it shortly and give it a go as well! Will post back when after! From everything I’ve heard, yes, it’s worth the upgrade!

Cheers,
Adrian

Sure! Be happy to elaborate; but you might have also noticed that unlike the past, I have yet to sell my MP8 – and probably won’t do so. The decision to move to the Roland was a trade-off. I still believe the MP8 (not the MP8II) and the MP9500 have the most authentic piano action available. For most people, this is simply too heavy of an action, however. But if you’re accustomed to playing on acoustic grands, you’ll feel right at home – no question about it. The other argument against these older boards is the quality/range of on-board sounds; like you, I discount this completely because I use a variety of sample libraries – I view the sound argument as simply a trade-off. It also comes down to the type of music you’re playing/composing. I play jazz and mix in quite a few synths, etc so I needed a slightly lighter action and RD700GX provides that without a loss in playing dynamics.

Roland’s V-Piano PHAIII is the corollary to the MP8 but its size and price tag just don’t suit me. If I were to fast forward to today, I’d certainly keep the MP8 in the running, probably compare it then to the GX700 and THEN add the Yamaha CP5 or CP1 (both have the same action) into the mix. The CP1 is interesting and may very well fit right between the GX and the MP8 having true wooden keys. My only hesitation with the CP1 is that it’s not a graded action, and I believe this is important for creating that authentic feel you’re striving for.

That said, everything above is just my humble opinion… but hopefully that gives you a range of choices to “road test”. Let us know what you ultimately decide (and why)?

Many thanks,
Adrian

I also agree that sample libraries still rule the day although the margin is become increasingly narrow.

For me, I’m still much more interested in the action/dynamics/and controller capability because my unit remains inside the studio. If, like you, a gig piano was also of interest, I would suggest comparing the Roland GX to the (new) Yamana CP5. The CP series is clearly going to give Roland some serious competition. That very well may be where I land next!

Hope this helps!

and thanks a lot for your helpful insight! I just tested RD700GX and V-Piano with Synthology Ivory samples and was very impressed of the sensitivity. I preferred V-Piano – it seemed to have a wider dynamic range and a little heavier keys, though 700GX was not bad at all. My reference is Yamaha P-200, which I have used 10 years pretty happily. Now I feel it has a bit plastic touch compared to the new models, and it is harder to play with dynamics. I was wondering if you have any opinion about V-Piano or HP307 (the same PHA III keys) as a master controller for Ivory and other libraries.
The sounds of the digital pianos are not quite to the level of the better sample libraries, I think. Also the issue of keys wearing out worries me – maybe it is fixed with the new PHA III?

Actually the best option for me would be a gig piano with very good master controller capabilities (for sample libraries) and best possible piano-like touch. V-Piano though is too expensive, I can only afford about 2500 euros instrument.What would you suggest?

Of course, it always come down to personal preference, but in my opinion, the CP5 would be a stronger investment than the CP300. For me, it would come down to the high likelihood of a more appealing action – simply based on the wooden keys. The CP5 will also provide a broader sound palette than the CP300, and still borrows enough of the piano modeling from the CP1 to probably meet or exceed the CP300. This is the same consideration I’m making with regards to potentially moving over to the CP5 from the RD700GX.

Let us know what you end up with?

Would the CP5 be a good purchase for those of us that can’t afford the CP1? Is the CP5 better than the CP300?

Great idea for a site and all comments very useful. I just thought I would add my bit to the key wear problem on the 700GX. My first one had the whole action replaced after a few months use and I was told that it was an updated surface that would not wear. I could not play the old one as I could feel the wear under my fingers and it detracted from any enjoyment I was getting from the sound or the action. After 2 months the new one is going the same way, which is very disappointing. Looks like the Yamaha CP5 for me, unless this also has issues with the ivory feel keys. My 130 year old grand at home (and I’m sorry but it does have real ivory) is a pleasure to play, but really for a usable stage piano, I think I would rather have the plastic than the uneven graining feel of a worn action.

Regards

Paul

the rd300gx has a different key action (pha ii ALPHA) which is lighter than the pha ii of the rd700gx.

If you want the best sound and portability, you should wait for the new yamaha cp50

Thanks for stopping by and posting! You know, I haven’t spent enough time on the 300gx to provide an objective reply. I do know that the feel is slightly different, obviously because it lacks the “ivory feel” (which from a wear/tear might be better:); but my recollection in playing it ever so briefly way back when I got the 700GX was that despite having the same PHA II action, it just felt “different”. I recall it lacked the responsiveness of the 700GX but not by a large margin. Really, it could have been simply owed to the different feel under my fingers. My suggestion would be to spend some time A-B testing each; you’re right in that it’s far more portable and it does have a good % of the 700GX sounds. Again going off memory but I also recall the older 700 series feeling very close to the 300GX – so perhaps that’s the better comparison?

Certainly would love for others to chime in on this coz I feel I’m not in a great position to advise Steve on this one….

Many thanks,
Adrian

Nice to hear about your interest in the CP-1! I’m constantly mesmerized by the excellence of sound and touch. I’ve had mine since March 3rd (about 3 weeks now). I’m finding that I like the touch more and more each time I play it, a difficult thing to explain.

Regarding your speaker questions I can tell you that you’ll be amazed at how much clear, full, smooth sound the Adam A5’s will put out even WITHOUT a subwoofer! I have my A5’s on stands so that the tweeters are at ear level just a few inches behind the piano. The width apart is about the length of the keyboard so that the speakers are within the length of the keyboard. As I posted previously I also have 4 Adam P-22A’s and an ADAM sub 10 MK2 subwoofer.

I run the balanced outs of the CP-1 straight into a stereo input on the Mackie Big Knob which has 3 speaker stereo balanced pairs (A,B,and C) and an extra “Studio Out” which I use for the A5’s (also balanced). I keep emphasizing ‘balanced’ since it will knock out any noise to the signal and this is important for the ‘natural effect’. Nothing more irritating than spending thousands of dollars on speakers then turning them on and putting up with a constant soft noise floor! The Mackie also has a pair of excellent, quiet headphone outs. I use AKG K240DF headphones and they are AMAZING!

This is a very exciting time for me with this new Yamaha CP-1 since the last time I bought an 88-key weighted digital piano was 14 years ago! That was the Yamaha P-300. So I look at this purchase as a potential very long-term investment. I wasn’t prepared for the sonic advances I’m hearing with the CP-1. Actually, until I experienced Ivory pianos (software) I really didn’t think the digital world would EVER inspire me as much as my acoustic piano did (I used to own a Yamaha C7). But the CP-1 soars right up there with not only the awesome luxurious CFIII and S6 acoustics but also the astounding electric pianos! I recently recorded a duo track of piano and vocal jazz on “My Funny Valentine” with Ivory’s “Italian Grand”. I then substituted the CP-1 piano and it sat deliciously in the mix as well as Ivory if not better. I don’t hear any “layer transitions” or sample “shifts” up the keyboard.

As for layering Pianoteq, I would experiment with that. I love to add increased sympathetic resonance (see previous post). I also insert a 5-band sweepable EQ in the signal path to Pianoteq and drop out some of the hi-mid frequencies for a smoother modeled piano sound. Actually the only thing you hear from Pianoteq is a very mild resonance far in the background added to the CP-1 sound… I’d say Pianoteq 5%, CP-1 95%.
The CP-1 is absolutely heaven! Hope you enjoy yours as much as I do Mark!

P.S. I must concur with you about music stores… sometimes the sales guys can be uninformed but I’ve kept looking around until I was able to strike up a relationship with a particular pro audio specialist who is also a studio owner and engineer! His advice is always well informed and usually put to the test rigorously!