New Yamaha CP1 – Could this be the one?
Was it just me, or did any of you feel that 2009 was uneventful in terms of new technology introductions? It seems that the tide may be turning, however, as we’ve just concluded the NAMM show here in Southern California.
For me, the new Yamaha CP1 is amongst the most exciting product announcements, and I felt compelled to share what I’ve found to date given that so many of my readers are keyboard aficionados! Hell, we’ve been carrying on a wonderful discussion about the Roland GX for nearly two years!
The new CP1 is the flagship “no compromise” model of the newly released CP line. The early read would indicate that this could possibly be the best of all worlds – latest acoustic modeling technology putting the sounds on par with the Roland V-Piano, a brand new killer action called NW-STAGE with real wooden keys putting the authenticity of the action on par with the Kawai MP8, and just enough multi-zone midi control to make it equally versatile on stage and in studio like the Roland RD700GX… Could it be possible?
I’m very open to the possibility and can’t wait to try one out – the street price appears to be approximately $5,000 (USD) which is far from trivial, but given the specifications, not surprising and slightly under the Roland V-Piano. What strikes me about the CP1 (vs. the V-Piano) is that it appears to be a bit more versatile in the MIDI realm. The V-Piano is sorely lacking in terms of MIDI control and it’s a huge heavy beast. The CP1 is much tidier, weighs nearly 20lbs less, and has an acceptable range of MIDI controls (4 zones; 2 internal, 2 external).
I cannot comment much further without sampling the merchandise but I wanted to post up a few videos I’ve found to date. If you find others, let me know and I’ll update this post.
Here’s an overview from the 2010 Namm Show!
Here’s a 4 part video from Keyboard Magazine!
Part 1 of 4…
Part 2 of 4…
Part 3 of 4…
Part 4 of 4…
January 23rd, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Don’t forgot to take a look at the modeling expansion board for the RD700GX. I think Roland has been secretly waiting for their competition to release something like the new CP series for a while. It turns out that the RD has always had the hybrid sample and modeling capabilities of the CP line. The new K-RD700GX1 upgrade is based on V-Piano modeling technology, just not fully modeled and therefore doesn’t cost nearly as much. I hear retail for the upgrade to an existing RD will be around $350 or less. It includes an SRX add-on board and a firmware update. It’ll be interesting to see how the upgraded RD compares to the new CP line.
January 27th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Completely agree and thanks for bringing this to the foreground, Jim! For me, I’ll probably buy this straight away and do a comparison test before opting in the CP1, but I must admit, it’s the new Yamaha action that has me very intrigued…. I always felt the sounds and control of the GX combined with the MP8 style wooden action would be THE combo of choice… Yamaha has really come close to “specifying” what I, personally, consider ideal… Won’t know until we get our hands on one!
February 10th, 2010 at 10:27 am
Adrian, a comment regarding the action of the CP1 and CP5: according to a Yamaha rep on a couple of other forums, he has claimed that the action is not graded, but a balance between an electric piano and an acoustic piano.
That said, I think the ability to tweak the electric pianos may alone make this instrument worth the effort for a live gig with Rhodes and Wurlis and even acoustic models. As far as authenticity to a real acoustic piano action, the MP8 may yet still have the edge. Anyone who needs more proof of that should try looking on Ebay for a used MP8. They’ll find they are exceedingly rare for that reason alone.
Also, on a side note: Kawai is apparently coming up with new digital pianos in the next few months. Hopefully they’ll address the issues with the MP8-II action as well as some of the sounds. 2010 is shaping up to be an incredible year for pianos.
By the way, thank you for the other excellent thread on the RD700GX.
February 10th, 2010 at 10:42 am
Hi Michael… Thanks a lot for sharing this information (on the CP1 and CP5). Interesting: a non-graded wooden action? I’m not sure I agree with that, but will give it benefit of doubt until I roadtest. You’re right though; it would give the MP8 the edge… and VERY GOOD POINT about trying to find one (MP8-I) on eBay… virtually non-existent. I wasn’t aware of Kawai’s plans… if that’s the case, bravo because they were soooooo close with the MP8 save the sounds and as noted, I have no intention of parting with mine :)
February 11th, 2010 at 11:01 am
I needed a really good piano for mobile performances. After 1 minute of playing I bought the CP1. The key to my “must have” is the possibility to alter the hammer from soft to hard etc. You can listen to the different piano sounds at:
http://www.solopianodiary.com/yamaha-cp1.html
February 11th, 2010 at 1:19 pm
COOL! A new CP1 owner has joined the conversation! Beyond our interest in the sounds, Christian, can you comment on the action? In particular, we were recently informed by Michael that the new NW ACTION is non-graded? Is this the case, and moreover, did you notice any compromise as a result? I like that statement: buying sight on seen after one minute of playing. It really works that way, doesn’t it!? Virtually every board I’ve owned was decided upon in less than 5 min… 1 min is VERY encouraging!!! Keep in touch, and thank you for sharing!
February 12th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
The keys are very special I would say, If you play them without volume then you don’t get feeling. They are fast and expressive, (like NORD stage 88) as with all keyboards or pianos they have to be played for longer time to let your fingers understand the dynamics. I am a soft solo piano player and I was blown away by the synergy between keys and sound. IF Yamaha have the guts to do a “only pure piano” then the action would be different, the rhodes and DX etc probably thought of rather much in terms of key action. It is an enormous difference compared to the N3 piano. (My favourite, but a bit heavy for mobile :-) I was talking to CLAVIA the day before purchase and I wanted their new NORD PIANO, but it will not hit the streets before late april. I had the bucks and by nature I am very impatient. Could not wait…
February 12th, 2010 at 9:37 pm
Thanks for the further update and elaboration, Christian! For what it’s worth, I too, believe that patience is overrated :) Good job and all the best!
February 26th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
I am always looking for additional information on this subject as well as others. I found your site very informative and well written. Your layout is easy to follow and I appreciate your contribution to the topic.
March 1st, 2010 at 2:24 am
Hi,
Do you think the CP1 could replace an ordinary real piano? My Yamaha C1 is a pile of crap and I can’t afford a C5
thanks
Darren
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Hi Darren,
I think the answer is always going to be a proverbial – it depends. It’s a very objective call, and has a lot to do with your experience on an acoustic. In my case, I grew up playing on a Steinway grand, and suffice it to say that no digital piano to date comes close – but I had to contend with close quarters and/or portability, etc, then something like the CP1 would be the best candidate especially today.
What I can say, IMO, is that appears to be the new bar. Shipments are just now arriving in So Cali so I intend to try one out shortly, and I’ll update my post accordingly.
Hope this helps!
-Adrian
March 4th, 2010 at 10:50 pm
Hi Adrian,
I just bought the CP-1 yesterday! I’m still in shock!!! I was not prepared for the experience. To anyone considering this keyboard, make sure you listen with excellent speakers. In my studio I use four ADAM P22A’s in quad stereo together with an ADAM sub 10 MK2 subwoofer. In front of me I fill the middle area with 2 ADAM A5’s. My speakers are worth about $10,000 Canadian (would you buy a Ferrari and put cheap tires on it?) :)
The CP-1 is the holy grail of digital pianos right now! It is a remarkable achievement! The touch is extremely responsive and just feels nice to the touch. I can finally practice my classical repertoire on this piano. (I used to own a Yamaha C7 grand). Here’s a hint… I tried layering CP-1 with Pianoteq software in order to get cross-string sympathetic vibration. I didn’t want Pianoteq to be very loud at all so as not to muddy up the CP-1 sound. So on Pianoteq I increased the sympathetic vibration effect to the max and lowered the overall volume way down. Now when I play the CP1 I get cross-string resonance (i.e. if I hold down a low octave quietly with the left hand and play staccato notes in the right hand, the right hand notes cause harmonics to sound from the low strings! Just like a real grand piano). I’m planning to layer this with the Yamaha Motif rack module. EVERYBODY buy one today. Sell your house if you have to. This piano DELIVERS far beyond your wildest dreams. I think the CP-1 could qualify as a work of art! I can finally sleep soundly now knowing that such a piano experience awaits me each day! Really, it’s that good. Stunning clarity. Solid sound. Expressive beyond belief.
March 5th, 2010 at 6:11 am
Oi Michael!
Congratulations and thank you for such an impassioned report on the CP-1. I think many of us, well at least I, suspected this would raise the bar but it’s great to hear this from an owner and not a marketer. Clever arrangement using Pianoteq layering, too! Keep in touch with us and I’m sure before long we’ll have a few others like you joining too!
All the best,
Adrian
March 6th, 2010 at 10:15 am
Hi again Adrian,
It’s been only a few days with the CP-1 and I feel like I’m dreaming! I have been chasing this digital piano experience for many, many years and finally I feel like I have an instrument that far surpasses my expectations. I appreciate your website and reading my lengthy review of the CP-1. This is a milestone!
I must reiterate that in order to experience this effect one must have an excellent monitoring system. Not that the CP-1 needs any enhancement from speakers, but that it relies on the speakers to bring forth it’s glorious, finely articulated subtleties. The speakers should be flat response and the room should not be too reverberant with good acoustics. When I was in the music store they connected the CP-1 to a pair of Yamaha HS80M speakers. I felt there was a bit of coloration in the sound, but the CP-1 “effect” came through for me but on a smaller, distorted scale. It was only when I got the CP-1 home that the shockwave took place in me. I mean I was literally stunned at the extreme realism and subtle control over parameters. (BTW, part of the reason I’m writing this is to give back to Yamaha for this remarkable achievement. If this helps them to continue their fine work, all the better!).
I’m a professional gigging cocktail pianist. I have played on many fine pianos including Steinway, Bechstein, Yamaha, Fazioli, Bosendorfer and I know what a fine piano experience should be like. I have played many, many actions. For example, I was backstage in Toronto at Roy Thomson Hall (Toronto Symphony home). I located the 9 foot Steinway D reserved for concert artists and played it. The action was the best I have EVER encountered on a piano. The responsiveness was incredible. You could practically breath on the keys and get a response of pianississimo.
Now the CP-1 has a most satisfying action. It is neither heavy nor too light. The keys and their shape just feel so good to handle. The action obviously is ‘tuned in’ to the sound generator in such a way as be ultra-responsive. Fast repetitions are amazingly responsive. I found that no matter how soft I played (and I mean ultra slow motion), the CP-1 produced a sound at the bottom of key depression. Which is a good thing considering that playing ultra-soft on a piano is one of the greatest challenges.
The pedals are solid and responsive. The soft pedal is not too overly stated. I really like that. All the cables on the 3 pedals have 3 pin jacks meaning that all 3 pedals have continuous capability.
As I write this I’m just shaking my head in disbelief. I actually almost gave up believing that this could happen. I have a home studio with a Music XPC model S computer, running ProTools with the 003 control surface. As I said earlier, in my studio I use four ADAM P22A’s in quad stereo together with an ADAM sub 10 MK2 subwoofer. In front of me I fill the middle area with 2 ADAM A5’s. As an audio command controller I use the Mackie “Big Knob” Studio Command System. I have two 20 inch computer monitors for the recording software and plug-ins. The piano is situated to my left, and the computer is in front of me. The speaker stereo orientation is that I have front and rear speakers (like in a car). The pair on my left is the left signal and the pair on my right is the right signal. The subwoofer is two feet ahead on the floor positioned to maximize frequency response. On the Mackie there are 3 speaker line outs; A, B, C with corresponding buttons. Each is a stereo out. So my front pair of Adam P22A’s are on output A. Back pair of Adam P22A’s are on output B. And the subwoofer receive a stereo output from C (it sums the signal). This means that when I’m facing the computer, I have the proper stereo orientation but when I turn facing left to play the CP-1 my stereo orientation is wrong. So I built a switch box for the A and B lines (2 DPDT switches) such that it corrects the stereo orientation. By switching on or off the A or B outputs I can have sound only in front of me or also behind me or just behind me. I can turn the subwoofer on or off. Each output has a volume adjustment on the back of the Mackie to fine tune the experience.
My speakers are about 3 feet from my ears. I found that when playing a digital piano that there was a lack of sound energy in the front middle. So, not wanting to spend so much more money on another pair of Adam P22A’s I tried small cheaper speakers such as Fostex. But they added coloration and ruined the subtlety of the experience. Then I put a pair of Adam A5’s (new product) in the middle area, about 2 feet apart. This just completes the sound so well, I feel like I hear a nine foot soundboard in front of me!
Okay, so one must be thinking about all the cost of not only the piano, but the whole speaker system I’m using as well. Maybe thinking why not just buy a real grand piano? But I use the speakers for the studio as well as just plain listening to music. I can practice on the CP-1 anytime without disturbing anyone (I use AKG K240df headphones). I can turn up the volume to any level. I can combine the acoustic grand sound with electric sounds (the other sounds on the CP-1 are also INCREDIBLE). It will never need tuning!
One concern I have is regarding the action… Will the CP-1 ever need regulating? Will the keyboard ever fail me? What is the lifespan of these keys I wonder? I believe there is no aftertouch built into this action at all, correct? I can record the MIDI output anytime. I can input MIDI from my computer and listen to this glorious realism.
The CP-1 is about getting things right. Really right. It’s QUALITY sound I have not heard from any other digital instrument to date. I tried the roland V-piano. The RD700sx. And many others. They all lack an intense acoustic, sonic clarity that the CP-1 delivers. The pianos focus on Yamaha’s sound and it’s a fantastic piano. Yes, the Steinway has that darker, rich character and the Bosendorfer has a sparkle etc., but the Yamaha’s in the CP-1 are a commanding piano experience, truer to the real Yamaha concert grand sound than on any other Yamaha product. I noticed that the CP-1 is better in sound than the Motif. I directly compared it with the S90sx in my studio. The S90sx has a newly sample S6 piano, but it pales in comparison to the CP-1 S6 piano. Same for the CFIII samples. The CP-1 just has miles more realism, clarity, and responsiveness (I even tried the two keyboards using MIDI and using only the action of the CP-1). I was able to compare the action of the S90xs which is spongier and slower, and plastic feeling (although I like it as well).
I urge everyone to experience the CP-1, but hope you experience it with good speakers. You WILL be amazed. You WILL become a believer. Sell whatever you have to to get this piano (not your children though). Then enter a new realm of piano experience. Wish you all the best! You WON’T be disappointed. I’d love to hear more comments from others. Thanks again Adrian for this wonderful blog!
Michael
March 6th, 2010 at 10:21 am
Wow.. Thank you, Michael, for writing such an extensive additional commentary. I have question for you: Would you mind if I were to take the combination of your two comments and mold those into a blog post – giving you the appropriate credits, of course? I ask this because I high-end gear folks tend to be one’s visiting this site and I think everyone would find your recent experience – as an early adopter – extremely helpful. This information will get significantly more coverage if we convert it a post vs. inside of comments. Let me know your thoughts?
Thanks again, Adrian
March 6th, 2010 at 10:31 am
Hi again,
I just realized that there is another Michael who posted previous to my posts. I just wanted to clarify. I’m the Michael that began posting at March 4th with the Adam speakers… Thanks!
March 6th, 2010 at 10:36 am
Hi again Adrian,
By all means please post my comments as you wish! Now, I just HAVE to get back to the CP-1 and play… it’s just that inspiring!
Michael
March 6th, 2010 at 10:41 am
Hi again everyone,
I’m the Michael with the Adam speakers… Just a quick note… make sure your WHOLE system is plugged in with balanced cables. From the CP-1 through to the speakers. There will be absolutely NO noise of any kind and the signal quality is higher. Of course, you all knew that!
Michael
March 8th, 2010 at 11:28 am
Oi Michael… Thanks for the thumbs up – will aggregate your excellent commentary into a separate blog post shortly! Have any pics of your new baby u wish to share?
March 9th, 2010 at 5:52 pm
Hi Michael, I read your post that said “I can finally practice my classical repertoire on this piano”. How do you compare the action to the Roland V?
I mostly play classical and am considering the Roland V, the CP1 and the Kawai MP8ii. I’ve tried all except the CP1.
From your comments and a lot of others on various websites, I’m leaning towards the CP1 but wanted to hear your opinion on the action for the acoustic pianos and more specifically classical music.
Thanks!
March 9th, 2010 at 8:18 pm
Hi Adrian,
I’ll be happy to send some studio pics soon. What’s the best way to upload to you?
March 11th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
Hi James and Adrian,
I just returned from the music store and played the Roland V quite extensively again. I played a lot of classical repertoire (Fantasie Impromptu, Beeth sonata, Debussy, Bach prelude and fugue…) as well as jazz and rags and pop. I must say that the Roland V action is quite excellent for a digital piano (one of the best). It has an authentic escapement feel in the last 1/8 inch of pressing the key. Also, the “ivory keytop feel” is amazingly comfortable. It has a more “grainy” feel than the CP-1. It is very fast with a very springy feel. If you hit the key and move away quickly, you actually see the key bounce several times rapidly. This doesn’t happen as much on the CP-1. Is that more authentic to a grand piano? Well maybe…but is that really desirable? I think the CP-1 has a better “solidness” to my taste.
I immediately went home for comparison to the CP-1. The CP-1 has a less “grainy keytop” feel to the fingertips yet it has a very nice silky touch to the tips of the fingers. There is also an “ivory” feel but less pronounced. It has a more “solid” response and feel. One important point is that on the Roland V if you play extremely softly you get no sound at all whereas on the CP-1 you will get a sound at the bottom of the key drop. I measured the CP-1 key drop to be 11 millimeters. As soon as you pass the 10th millimeter and enter that last millimeter the CP-1 will make its quietest sound. I really like that! Imagine playing extremely pianissimo on a grand and never missing a note! You don’t get this on the Roland V. I figure if you’re going to enter that last millimeter then you deliberately want sound don’t you? What are your thoughts on this?
As for the sound quality… Well, for me, the CP-1 just wins hands down. There is just an incredible reproduction of the 9 foot Yamaha and S6 Yamaha (better than the S90xs). I could simply live with the one CFIII program alone! But you get spoiled with the other piano as well (S6). Then to really make matters complete, the electric pianos are just to die for! Then you get to COMBINE 2 at a time for a truly fulfilling piano experience! I reiterate that the piano sounds are incredibly clear for EVERY key, well balanced sonically, and most importantly, these sounds INSPIRE!!! The Roland V pianos sound pleasant throughout most of the range, but they have a ‘flat, synthetic’ quality over much of the range. To be sure, it is a pleasing sound and quite listenable, and also quite inspiring, but not nearly as rich and even and intense as the CP-1. It just sounds better and inspires me more.
A factor for me was that I wanted a piano that I could just turn on and immediately start practicing with without having to launch the computer (I own Ivory and Pianoteq as well). The CP-1 comes through with as much sonic power as any software based piano if not more! It powers up in about 5 seconds flat (the winner in the quarter mile!). I love the subtle instantaneous control over hammer hardness, reverbs, modulation (if you like). The user interface is intuitive and very user friendly, fast, and yet utterly simplistic. There are plenty of adjustment parameters, but not overloaded. The three pedals work flawlessly, and I can’t wait to try a wah-wah pedal control on the electric pianos.
I also just bought the Motif xs7 to add a 76 note light keybed to my studio as well as the glorious samples. I also want to explore the world of motif sampling. I MIDI the CP-1 into the Motif and layer sounds as well as adding cross-string resonance with Pianoteq (see above post).
Yes, the CP-1 is a number one, class act, through and through. It’s the best deal I’ve purchased in a very long time. It’s a winner all around and for me a dream come true….until I own a Steinway B. :)
Michael (in Toronto)
March 12th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Hey Guys! Are you there? Any responses to all this CP-1 commentary?
CP-1 plus Pianoteq cross-string resonance = piano heaven (see my last posts). I just gotta tell you all that this is one helluva digital piano experience. This combination is just like having a REAL piano here. I do this WITHOUT ANY reverb at all. Just like having the piano right in the studio. Amazing. The soundboard resonances are the best “reverb” one needs. The harmonics all line up with the harmonic content of my music without any needed reverb effects mushing up my sound. Sometimes though when I want to feel as though I’m in a bigger space I’ll add some reverb. Can’t wait to record this into some cool tracks. Stay tuned CP-1 watchers… better yet, stop watching and go get one today!
Michael (Toronto)
P.S. pics coming soon…
March 13th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
Hi Adrian,
I’m the first Michael, and wanted to comment here.
I’m actually a bit hesitant to wholeheartedly recommend the CP-1 as the be-all and end-all of pianos. It has some great sounds with not a whole lot of looping, and is more solid through the midrange than Roland’s offerings. The Rhodes and Hammond are on par with the other performance stage piano that everyone loves to hate, the Nord Electro series. The DX7 is pure heaven and a dead ringer for the original.
All that said, I really don’t think this is a great replacement for those looking for a grand piano action simulation. There isn’t any grading on it, and I can tell because when I played one I could sense the difference between that and some Kawais and Steinways I normally play on. The RD700GX that you have with the PHAII action, or a V piano with PHAIII, is more authentic to me than this new NW-stage action.
It’s certainly better than the mega-tank CP300 predecessor in terms of weight, and has some advantages. It won’t make everyone happy, though. I think some of the Nord Electro folks might migrate over because of the better pianos (and cost on the CP5), but I think your RD700GX with the Supernatural expansion or a software piano like Synthogy Ivory will be better strictly from a piano perspective. And we still haven’t seen the RM3 action from Kawai in a portable format, but I’m sure we will soon.
March 14th, 2010 at 5:21 am
Hi Michael thanks for your analysis. I got a CP1 this week and it is amazing!
I agree with your comments on the Roland. I tried it out as well and it fell a little short. I decided to order the CP1 even without trying it because of your comments a lot of others out there. I was blown away when it came. I’m using HD 800 headphones with it only and the piano’s are truly lifelike. I prefer the action to the Roland (i didn’t like their feel) too.
I’m fairly new to keyboards and really was only interested in the acoustic pianos. I play classical music and haven’t experimented yet with the digital keyboards in it.
I haven’t hooked it up to the computer yet and don’t even know about pianoteq. I’m really just happy with the way it is. I have tweaked some of the CFIIIS’s properties like hammer hardness and release length to my tastes. It is so easy to adjust on the fly.
I have a couple of questions for you if you don’t mind. Each piano (CFIIIS,S6) has either 2 or 3 band choices. What is the difference? Also when you play the acoustic pianos do you leave the reverb and pre-amp on? I’ve been shutting the reverb off. I can’t find anything in the book that really explains what these are. I’m very new to the digital world!
I moved to NYC several years ago and never had space for an acoustic piano so I stopped playing. I only recently started to see what was available with keyboards and this CP1 has blown me away. The sound is better than anything I ever played!
James
March 14th, 2010 at 6:58 am
Hi Michael 1 , re: the action
The action not being graded was the only thing that held me up buying the CP1. I was only able to test the V and the Kawai. I decided to take a chance and order it knowing that if I didn’t like the feel I was going to return it. I only play classical music as well.
I find the action feel to be in between the Roland V and Kawai MP8ii. While everyone’s opinion will vary, I’m really loving it and I’ve grown accustomed to it rather quickly.
March 14th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
Hello everyone, and nice to hear that James has the CP-1 as well! Congratulations for taking this step! And I’m honored that you did this based on my comments! (And glad that your music retailer has a return policy in case your not totally satisfied). Think I’ll just ramble on a bit more about this if you will allow me to indulge myself!
Well let me say this to Michael no. 1. I must say that you’re observations about the action sound pretty accurate. The CP-1 action is most excellent, but possibly not as “authentically grand piano” as for example the Roland V. I find the Roland RD700GX slightly heavy. The Roland V is probably a tiny bit closer to a grand action than the CP-1. And I mean TINY. So what do we have here?….
I, for one, am simply loving this instrument. I’m asking myself if a “perfect” grand piano action is what I really want in a studio keyboard. (Remember, the CP-1, to me, is pretty close to a perfect grand action). Anyway, when I’m playing the Rhodes or DX (incredible!) or CP-80’s this keyboard just feels like it belongs with these sounds. I’d say that for a grand piano action it’s pretty darn near close as well. I’ve been able to play all manner of styles of music with excellent finger/key responses. So maybe I’ve been a bit too complimentary about the NW-stage action. But I gotta say I just love it. I recently took home the Yamaha S90xs and thought that action was ok, but CP-1 is so much better for piano playing. The S90xs has a mushier feel (due to aftertouch?). I thought the S90xs was going to be my new 88 note weighted studio board there for a bit but took it back. I’ve used a Yamaha P-300 (not CP-300) for about 14 years! THAT was a very light action. During that time I also owned a 7ft grand for about ten years (the Yamaha C7). I had to sell off my grand which I do miss, believe me… I’m working towards one day owning a Steinway B anyways…
Also, I tried the S90xs in order to get the Motif sounds as well as having a cool “jamming” instrument with the arpeggiators and styles. But for playing sounds such as organs or guitars I prefer a non-weighted action (preferably 76 notes or 88). So to achieve this in my studio I ended up right now with the CP-1 and a Motif xs7 (76 non-weighted keys). I MIDI the CP-1 driving the xs7 and can jam and layer in real time to my hearts content. This I find very inspirational. The Motif also expands my tone generator library without weighing down my computer processor. So all in all, I have two different keyboards to use and all the motif sounds as well as an incredible piano beast that inspires the hell out of me!
In terms of sound, I’ll say it again that the CP-1 just sonically has the best, clearest, driving, yet expressive piano you will sit down to short of actually sitting in front of a Yamaha CFIII piano or S6. I just did not hear this with either the Roland V, 700GX, Korg, Kurzweill, but I haven’t tried the Kawai. I love playing the Ivory Steinway and Fazioli (Italian Grand) software pianos. The CP-1 is definitely on par with any of these, if not better. It even blows away the motif grand piano (not bad). I love the pedal unit, very solid, doesn’t move a millimeter (I’m Canadian), and is quiet (so far) and pedals positioned nicely.
When I was back at the store re-checking the Roland V, I must say I liked the action very much as a piano action (maybe a tiny bit more than the CP-1). Then at the very end of this audition, I tried rapid single note repetitions with one hand and found that the Roland V fell short for me. This is also not easy to do with the CP-1 or any digital piano I’ve tried so far. Also, spending all that money on a Roland V for it’s piano action but not totally liking the sounds seemed like a waste of money. Plus, I’d have to spend another 900 dollars for their solid stand. Ouch!
I plan to use the CP-1 as my “main” studio keyboard and I believe that for playing other sounds (especially varieties of keyboards) it will be amazing! Yesterday I did some “double keyboard” noodling with the motif xs7. Both hands playing the same rapid broken triad, then one hand moving to a different chord in the same octave. Some cool effects to try. Anyways, now I’m off topic…
One last thing I’ll say is this… I can’t understand why people will spend thousands and thousands of dollars on keyboards, computers, mixers, and processors then skimp when it come to speakers, spending only a few hundred dollars! Do you think that somehow that excellent digitized sample inside your keyboard or computer is just magically going to hop out of your cheap speaker bypassing the mediocre speaker cone and tweeter? Trust me, I’ve tried this! It won’t work! Sink some serious cash into your speaker system and be prepared to enter sonic heaven! Think ADAM or some other very serious speaker system and you’ll be rewarded with a pristine sound experience practically as if acoustic instruments are right there! This will really bring out the CP-1 experience. (BTW, I studied at Trebas Institute of Recording Arts, and I was a live sound engineer for years as well. I used spectrum analyzers for everything until I was able to hear subtle frequency adjustments.) And of course, run everything balanced…. But you already knew that, right?
I’ll be happy to get pics over to you soon…
Michael (in Toronto)
March 14th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
Michael(s)- just wanted to say thanks again on behalf of everyone for pouring so much detail into your most descriptive posts. It’s beyond obvious that you are (both) passionate about sharing your
“good fortune” and direct experience with the CP-1 and I’m sure everyone appreciates the help. I do plan to (still) aggregate this into a summary review on your behalf but won’t be back in the States for another few days – in the mean time, enjoy!
All the best,
Adrian
March 14th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
Hi James,
You asked:
“I have a couple of questions for you if you don’t mind. Each piano (CFIIIS,S6) has either 2 or 3 band choices. What is the difference? Also when you play the acoustic pianos do you leave the reverb and pre-amp on? I’ve been shutting the reverb off. I can’t find anything in the book that really explains what these are.”
I think that the only difference is not the actual sound of the piano but only with the type of equalizer available for each on the pre-amp section. For example, with the 3 band CFIII you have a 3 band preset EQ, whereas with the 2 band CFIII you have a 2 band EQ with one band tunable for frequency. This allows you to “zero in” on whatever frequency you want to adjust. Otherwise, to my ears they both sound exactly the same. Of course the CFIII sounds very different than the S6 piano. A side note is that at the end of the chain there is a master EQ which is a full 5-band PARAMETRIC EQ. Each of the 5 bands has adjustments for volume (dB), centre frequency (hz), and bandwidth (q). Talk about fine tuning EQ adjustability!!! Also note that the master EQ is independent of the program data. Whatever you do with the master EQ stays put regardless of switching piano programs. You could use this nicely in a live situation where the speaker response is less than ideal, or for effect purposes if you want to add/subtract very particular frequencies in the overall sound (it affects the WHOLE setup, I.e. combinations of 2 pianos as well).
As for using reverb, this is an entirely broad (excuse the association!) and specific topic! Do you want to feel as if you’re in a concert hall, medium room, or just have a dry piano? Is there an overall reverb in your DAW mix? Etc., etc…
In a live setting, I’d probably not use much reverb at all depending on the room I’m in.
With the CP-1, I’m falling in love with the digital world all over again! Last night I told a friend that I wasn’t too crazy about going to my gig with the real acoustic piano (it’s a small 5 foot Weber, albeit well maintained), I wished I could have taken my CP-1! But alas, my CP-1 has a comfortable spot nestled at the heart of my studio, kinda reminds me of the song “Baby Grand”.
Cheers,
Michael (Toronto)
March 15th, 2010 at 9:36 am
Thanks a lot Michael That was very helpful.
March 15th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
Here’s a cool CP-1 Yamaha design site…!
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/design/synapses/product/list/?productId=024&lng=en
March 15th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
An excellent representation of classical music being played on the CP-1. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7A4Csfey6g&translated=1
March 16th, 2010 at 6:15 am
Here’s another great site with a lot of CP1 samples.
http://solopianodiary.com/Yamaha-CP1.html
March 17th, 2010 at 12:01 am
Ok everybody, I don’t want to shock anyone, but I was finding myself in a bit of a crisis concerning the my CP-1 over the last 24 hours! Without getting into great detail (it’s 3:30am here) in point form here’s what happened…
- I started feeling like the action on the CP-1 was not so conducive to playing demanding classical piano passages. Playing everything else was fine. I then got a bit down over this as my fingers struggled to play certain passages I could play very well on my acoustic C7 (i.e. RH opening to Chopin Fantasie Impromptu).
-the sound though is nothing short of HALLELUJAH! am I playing a digital or an acoustic? It’s incredibly fantastic and rich and inspiring, smooth, full, commanding, sweet, resonant, warm, et al….
-I started thinking that maybe I needed a digital with a better “piano action”. The CP-1 has a kind of hybrid piano/electric piano action I think… started considering the Roland V-piano instead…
-went back to music store to try the Roland V-piano again today and played for over an hour on it. I found the action slightly heavy but better than any other digital piano. But the sound was annoying, especially in the upper midrange. Thought about buying the V piano just for it’s action! (to play with Ivory). Abandoned that idea quickly!
-felt like I could never part with the CP-1 sound!!! But brought home a motif xs8 to try as a combined 88 key weighted action instead, sound module, sampler. Now I have 3 new keyboards sitting in my studio: CP-1, Motif xs7, and Motif xs8! Boy did I have fun with MIDI cords!
-at a certain point in my auditions, the CP-1 action became rather friendly to my fingers in almost all challenges. I tweaked the keyboard response settings and really got to feel the possibilities. The action is actually quite impressive once you spend some time relating to it. It’s a kind of a “warm” feeling action (not sluggish). I’m happy again :)
-got loving the layer combinations and electric pianos as well (so subtle and clear).
-now I’m almost 100 percent resolved with keeping the CP-1. (I’ll return the Motif xs8)
-as a second keyboard, I’ll go with the Motif xs7 (it has slightly smaller key width) but a fast action suitable for organ playing or other fast instruments. I’ll use the real time controls for jamming live.
-believe me, this was not one of my better days. Well, I guess you could say it was a “crisis in paradise”.
Here’s a quote I found on a blog by someone else at (he’s talking about the Roland V-Piano upgrade then about the CP-1):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1350656/V-Piano%20Update…quick%20review.html
“Well, I’ve installed the update, and am not really impressed. I really needed them to fix the existing mid range problems with the existing presets / patches / models – whatever you want to call them. Fix the problems first, then add patches.
For me the Vertical, V1 Impactance and Metallic SB patches offer no advantages.
I like the Triple Large patch the best, and the mid range is improved, but still has a ways to go. To my ears, there are also a few notes hear and there that will need tweaking, apart from the mid range, that did not need tweaking on the other, i.e. original patches.
I don’t get why they call this V-Piano Evolution. Come on, they’ve added four patches, to the existing 24, and haven’t done anything to improve the existing 24! Seriously?
So, I’m still anxiously wanting to try out the Yamaha CP1 and experience words like “unreal detail, beautiful bass, gorgeous midrange, crystal clear top end with no brittleness at all”. Words used elsewhere to describe the CFIIIS piano. I just don’t feel such inspiration with V-Piano. This may be in fact because it is modeled only, and such words need samples + modeling to become a reality.”
I hope the CP-1 will make you a believer soon too! Just make sure you listen with studio headphones or excellent studio monitors. I think I’ll be keeping mine for life!
March 17th, 2010 at 12:20 am
Just another thought…
At this early point I think that the Roland V piano action has it over the CP-1 action in terms of “acoustic piano action”. Then I thought that once V-piano owners try a CP-1 and are stunned by the sound and playability, they might want to sell off their V-pianos en masse. Then I might pick up a used V-Piano (maybe for a thousand?) for an extra studio action/ extra studio piano board for when my piano playing buddies come over for jamming duets! For myself, I might use the V-piano action solely for playing classical driving the CP-1. What do you think about this crazy thought? Please let me say that I think the V-Piano is a marvel of technology and one day it may be the new standard…
Cheers,
Michael
March 17th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
For all those who are still attached to their RD700GXs, I’ve had my supernatural piano expansion installed for a few weeks now and I feel comfortable saying that it is definitely worth the $300 upgrade price. This isn’t just a sample upgrade, it’s a whole new product in the same familiar casing. I might even go so far as to say that it offers a better (more natural) sound than the V-Piano, at the cost of just a little less tweak-ability. I can’t compare to the CP series yet, as I’ve yet to get my hands on one. But if you already own an RD, the price is a drop in the bucket compared to buying a new CP. It’s worth checking out.
March 17th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Upon rereading my last post: “Just another thought…” I’d like to apologize for my last post regarding the V-Piano… I belittled the sound quality of the V-Piano and even suggested that owners would “want to sell off their V-pianos en masse”. I also suggested that the V-piano was only good for it’s action (most excellent action). I dearly apologize to everyone and especially V-Piano owners for these crass comments. I meant no disrespect…
Today I was in the music store playing the V-Piano and tried the new upgraded sounds (‘Impactance, Upright…) Must say there is a definite improvement in physical modelling! I love the very authentic ivory feeling keys and I’ll say it again, the action is simply spectacular. I’d even say that as a grand piano action I’d prefer it over the CP-1 action. Wish I could “marry” the two!
Actually, just another thought… if Roland continues to improve the V-Piano sound then the V-Piano is definitely a product that can grow with you. Once again, please excuse my irresponsible mental lapse!
March 18th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
Could someone please tell me exactly what piece the pianist is playing on the following Youtube video from 1:55 to 3:18?
This gentle rising theme brought tears to my eyes… don’t think I’ve ever heard it before… My guess is this is Liszt. This is the video I referred to in the previous post… if you turn up the volume and close your eyes, your in front of a nine foot CFIII. The CP-1 really delivers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7A4Csfey6g&translated=1
March 21st, 2010 at 8:53 pm
Ok… I found out he’s playing Schumann “Novelette”, op. 21 (one of 8 pieces)….. See how good it sounds on the CP-1! Here’s the link again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7A4Csfey6g&translated=1
March 24th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
Adrian, I am very happy to find this site, and the wealth of information.
I have a question for Michael (Toronto), and you :
I am about to purchase for my loft a CP-1 (for my children to learn on and for me to noodle on) and had pretty much determined to get ADAM A5’s for sound, going straight from Line Out to the active speakers. (I suppose I will find the Stereo-link feature useful for an evenly balanced volume control.) I am thinking to reinforce the bass with an A7 subwoofer, but I am not clear as to how I get the signal to the subwoofer.
From your description of your extensive speaker set up, I suppose you must be using a mixer or some kind of simpler (or more complex) signal distribution device(s) which presumably may handle the signal to the sub-woofer.
In my case, other than the sub-woofer, I don’t really intend to add more speakers to the 2 A5’s.
Will I need a small mixer or 2.1 preamp or some other kind of device between the piano and the speakers and if so what might you recommend ? Or is the Mackie Big Knob the “black box” that does all that ? (Pardon my ignorance.)
In conjunction to the question above I should note that I was already considering getting a decent pre-amp for a good set of headphones for silent playing. Maybe I need a Mackie Big Knob combined with another black box, or two ?
If you are wondering why I don’t just go over to the music store where I will buy the CP-1 and ask for their solution, I should explain that for some reason I am so dysfunctional in music stores that whenever I consult on some slightly out of the ordinary question with the gear heads at the shop I am just as likely to get way off on a new tangent and come home with a new guitar or mini-synth.
Anyway, I appreciate any advice and thanks again Adrian for the great site.
P.S. I would like to come back to you later for advice on using Pianoteq software. In my household I have a both an extra Macbook Pro and an IMac, one of which I suppose would be useful to plant next to the CP-1.
March 25th, 2010 at 6:13 am
Hi Mark,
Appreciate you stopping by and commenting. Will try my best to address your questions (re connecting 2:1 with CP-1). MOST OF THE TIME, a configuration like what you’re describing will be achieved by going straight out of the CP-1 into the *sub-woofer* (that’s right two stereo ins to the sub even tho the sub is mono) and then using the stereo outs of the sub-woofer to connect to the A5s. I’m not sure if the A7 supports this, but most sub-woofers do so that would be a clean and tidy setup.
For a 2:1 setup you really shouldn’t require a mixer, but yes, in the case of what Michael has going, that’s indeed a requirement.
Instead of a Mackie Big Knob, I might suggest something like the KRK ERGO which not only provides the “big knob” type functionality but also equalization (and pretty darn good at that) to compensate for room acoustics – this will definitely help the quality of your sound in a smaller space. Additionally, it has precisely the type of speaker management you’re requiring: separate sub-woofer and right/left stereo outputs. The CP1 would direct out into the ERGO and the ERGO becomes your “mini-mixer”.
I happen to use the ERGO myself (not for the same reasons) but I have separate post/review on the site that explains that gadget a bit more. I believe it’s approximately the same price as the Big Knob (but simply provides more of what I believe you’ll require)…
Hope this helps, and let us know what you settle on?
March 25th, 2010 at 6:53 am
Thanks very much Adrian. I can now safely go to the music shop without losing my mind.
I will let you know how things go, and once again – Thanks
March 25th, 2010 at 6:55 am
Oh, and I am relieved that I won’t have to ask at the music store for “A Big Knob”.
March 25th, 2010 at 7:00 am
Don’t u worry – we have your back – and, don’t take all the blame for difficult navigation at music stores. The majority of people who work at those establishments are beyond useless… I find much better guidance at online stores such as Sweetwater and Vintage King…
March 25th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
Hi Mark,
Nice to hear about your interest in the CP-1! I’m constantly mesmerized by the excellence of sound and touch. I’ve had mine since March 3rd (about 3 weeks now). I’m finding that I like the touch more and more each time I play it, a difficult thing to explain.
Regarding your speaker questions I can tell you that you’ll be amazed at how much clear, full, smooth sound the Adam A5’s will put out even WITHOUT a subwoofer! I have my A5’s on stands so that the tweeters are at ear level just a few inches behind the piano. The width apart is about the length of the keyboard so that the speakers are within the length of the keyboard. As I posted previously I also have 4 Adam P-22A’s and an ADAM sub 10 MK2 subwoofer.
I run the balanced outs of the CP-1 straight into a stereo input on the Mackie Big Knob which has 3 speaker stereo balanced pairs (A,B,and C) and an extra “Studio Out” which I use for the A5’s (also balanced). I keep emphasizing ‘balanced’ since it will knock out any noise to the signal and this is important for the ‘natural effect’. Nothing more irritating than spending thousands of dollars on speakers then turning them on and putting up with a constant soft noise floor! The Mackie also has a pair of excellent, quiet headphone outs. I use AKG K240DF headphones and they are AMAZING!
This is a very exciting time for me with this new Yamaha CP-1 since the last time I bought an 88-key weighted digital piano was 14 years ago! That was the Yamaha P-300. So I look at this purchase as a potential very long-term investment. I wasn’t prepared for the sonic advances I’m hearing with the CP-1. Actually, until I experienced Ivory pianos (software) I really didn’t think the digital world would EVER inspire me as much as my acoustic piano did (I used to own a Yamaha C7). But the CP-1 soars right up there with not only the awesome luxurious CFIII and S6 acoustics but also the astounding electric pianos! I recently recorded a duo track of piano and vocal jazz on “My Funny Valentine” with Ivory’s “Italian Grand”. I then substituted the CP-1 piano and it sat deliciously in the mix as well as Ivory if not better. I don’t hear any “layer transitions” or sample “shifts” up the keyboard.
As for layering Pianoteq, I would experiment with that. I love to add increased sympathetic resonance (see previous post). I also insert a 5-band sweepable EQ in the signal path to Pianoteq and drop out some of the hi-mid frequencies for a smoother modeled piano sound. Actually the only thing you hear from Pianoteq is a very mild resonance far in the background added to the CP-1 sound… I’d say Pianoteq 5%, CP-1 95%.
The CP-1 is absolutely heaven! Hope you enjoy yours as much as I do Mark!
P.S. I must concur with you about music stores… sometimes the sales guys can be uninformed but I’ve kept looking around until I was able to strike up a relationship with a particular pro audio specialist who is also a studio owner and engineer! His advice is always well informed and usually put to the test rigorously!
April 20th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
I’m interested in buying a digital piano, and I was considering the CP300. However, I would be willing to spend $600 more for the CP5, simply based on the reviews of the CP1 above.
Would the CP5 be a good purchase for those of us that can’t afford the CP1? Is the CP5 better than the CP300?
April 20th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Nathan,
Of course, it always come down to personal preference, but in my opinion, the CP5 would be a stronger investment than the CP300. For me, it would come down to the high likelihood of a more appealing action – simply based on the wooden keys. The CP5 will also provide a broader sound palette than the CP300, and still borrows enough of the piano modeling from the CP1 to probably meet or exceed the CP300. This is the same consideration I’m making with regards to potentially moving over to the CP5 from the RD700GX.
Let us know what you end up with?
May 5th, 2010 at 8:11 pm
tried the cp-1; fantastic sound, however if you are used to playing a real grand, the action will not satisfy. I’ve been using a cp-300 for 5 years and I WON’T be upgrading to the cp-1. The graded action of the cp-300 PLUS the sensation of feeling the 30W internal speakers vibrate through the keys makes the whole playing experience far more “real” regardless of the fact that the piano sound is not as authentic as the cp-1. When I say ‘not as authentic’ that, by no means diminishes the quality of the cp-300 sample….I only say that relative to the cp-1’s stellar sound. Not worth the price if you are searching for a piano sub. I hope they don’t discontinue the cp-300.
May 6th, 2010 at 6:24 am
also….I tour extensively. When we need backline, I always know that there will be a cp-300 in stock. Not too sure how many backline companies will be stocking a $5000+ piece of gear…
May 6th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
i have a yammy S70xs…… im pretty happy with it as im not a full fledge pianist…. so its a good go between for me………(between piano and synth)
my wish list for CP1……… wish the design had a flat surface for putting another synth on like the Roland V-piano………. and hopefully CP1 will come down in price (yeah right)
May 7th, 2010 at 6:40 am
Hello Michael (another from Toronto)!
Thanks for taking the time to comment – especially on this point of the CP1 action. I think many of us share your concerns with regards to the non-graded action. That’s one thing that I can’t get my head around; why did Yami opt that out? Interestingly, I played the P250 (CP300 predecessor) for many years and have the same opinion as you – combined with those internal 30W vibrations, it was definitely the best feeling Yamaha I’d experienced.
Just my opine, but I’ve always put the action/feel way ahead in terms of sound (from the board) because there are numerous ways to meet or exceed the sound quality with off board samples and/or even modeling engines. I think we’re all interested what the forthcoming CP5 will do in terms of comparison to some of the Roland models such as the GX700 but speaking for myself, take away the graded action (which the Roland has) and it very well may not pass muster.
Thanks again for sharing!
May 7th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
One thing considering graded actions – on a true acoustic piano, is the grading determined by anything other than hammer weight? Yamaha’s CP60/70/80 series of electromechanical pianos certainly have different sized hammers, as do Wurlitzer electric pianos. I think Rhodes do as well, which makes Yamaha’s decision to not grade this action seem increasingly odd…
Also, many digital piano actions have 3 sections of grading; heavy, medium, and light. This means there is a distinct step transitioning between these sections, instead of a constant grading across 88 keys. Do any digital piano keybeds use constant grading, with each key having slightly greater or less weight than it’s neighbor? Do any keybeds use more than 3 sections of weight?
I’ve yet to play the CP1, V-Piano, or MP8. But the V-Piano’s lack of Rhodes and Wurlitzer emulations bothers me, and the MP8 seems like investing dated technology. Adding additional sound modules and computers can be versatile but I don’t want to have to depend on that to be satisfied with a new keyboard. I did enjoy playing a Nord Stage EX 88 recently, and the Nord Piano is another interesting option.
I grew up on a nice August Forstner upright, and currently own CP70B’s, a Baldwin Electropiano, Wurlitzer 200’s, Hammond CV & A100, a Clavinet D6, and a Yamaha CS50, in addition to an old, busted K2500X and some other digital and analog synths. A large reason why I own these different instruments is for authenticity of sound quality and the way the performance is affected by the mechanics of the instruments respective actions. I’ve been considering the CP1 and CP5, along with the Nord Stage and other instruments, to get some lighter gear to transport to gigs.
I created a spreadsheet to compare the current offerings of digital pianos, as well as organ style keyboards, which is visible at the link below. Please feel free to contribute any relevant factual information to the spreadsheet.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AgBRFhaER91CdDlOX2ExVVF3OEhDemtwTDZTUlUyUnc&hl=en
Thanks for the info and commentary.
willi
May 8th, 2010 at 8:41 am
I agree 100% that the feel of the keyboard is the most important factor. I love my cp-300 and I will never stop playing on it. If I’m doing a recording session and I need something that sounds exactly like a real grand, I record the passage on my cp and then use the midi track to trigger Ivory, or some other killer software piano. I’m not too keen on playing ivory in realtime with my yamaha as the yamaha has been calibrated (in terms of velocity) to capture the sound as perfectly as possible. For live work (I’m a sideman in a rock/country group) the cp-300 is as good as it gets. Anything “better” is totally subjective and mute. I’ve heard guys playing boards from the early 90’s that sound fantastic for the kind of music they’re playing. If you are a professional classical/jazz player, chances are you’re already playing on a real grand live so that answers that.
To answer your question as to why yamaha did not go with graded….I can tell you that it’s because the cp-1 is more than just an acoustic piano. There are a few songs in our set that require wurlitzer/rhodes, and to be honest, the cp-300’s graded action is not ideal to playing electric pianos. I think yamaha assumed that the targeted buyer would want the best of both actions. I am disappointed as 90% of my sound is piano, so I won ‘t be upgrading.
May 8th, 2010 at 8:46 am
also, to address the “first” michael from toronto…..it sounds like he is also not 100% on the action of the cp-1. For the price he paid on the cp-1, he could buy:
1. a cp-300
2. a killer computer
3. Ivory
4. with change to spare.
Do what I do….record on the cp-300 using the cp’s internal piano sound and then use your midi track to trigger a Bosendorfer, or Steinway, or whatever you have on your computer. This is what 90% of mid-size studios do.
May 8th, 2010 at 8:52 am
My last point……for the price of a new cp-1, you could buy a decent used yamaha baby grand. (i.e. 5-3′) The depreciation on baby grands, especially yamahas and kawais are insane; Many rich people buy baby grands for their kids to learn piano, and then the kids quit and the piano sits. Go to craigslist and low-ball.
May 8th, 2010 at 9:37 am
All very valid points, Michael (another), and probably the reason I’m in the same court with my GX700…. for that amount of money, it has to be much more compelling and with sound not being the key issue (owed to Ivory and many more) it really does come down to action. I take on board the rationale for (Y) not having created a graded action but the CP1, in my opinion, was still created first and foremost to raise the bar in stage pianos…. good example of what happens when you try to be too many things at one time…
Thanks again for taking the time to express your views!
-Adrian
May 12th, 2010 at 11:28 pm
Hey I hear a lot about the Cp1 but what about the Cp5? just wondering if the 9 foot piano and the other features are worth the extra money? what’s the biggest deal breaker for you when picking up the cp1? VS Cp5?
thanks
May 19th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Well, the thing is, the CP50 has less sounds but has the same GH action of the cp300. It’s missing some sounds but is a lot cheaper if you’re into the GH action.
May 19th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Yeah I’d like to know more about the differences between the CP1 and CP5!
Thanks
Darren
May 27th, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Hello,
I just came home from trying out a yamaha Cp5 at a Sam Ash music store. I must say, from a person who has been playing classical piano for 20+ years and recieved a masters in piano, I was very impressed with the Cp5. The wooden Keys REALLY made a difference in the action. I’d say action is similar to a medium(i mean medium as not heavy weighted like a steinway or baldwin piano) weighted acoustic piano. I’m a bit of a newbie when it comes to digital pianos, I haven’t tried out the Cp1 yet, but i have tried the roland 700 GX and I didn’t like the action as much as the cp5. Since i’m looking for a more “heavy weighted feel” I’m very curious about the action and feel of the Cp5 vs. the Kawai mp8 because if the kawai mp8 is heavier then i must get one (if i can find one)! During my undergraduate and graduate studies I’ve been playing Steinway and Baldwin pianos so I’m used to and prefer “heavy” action and feel. Adrian help! :( If you say the Kawai mp8 is heavier action and more like a steinway than the cp5 then need one!
Thanks for your awsome website and posts! I found this site just in time!
-Preben Hoegh
May 27th, 2010 at 7:46 pm
Preben – thank you for clarifying that the CP5 – as per product literature – has real wooden keys; not sure if this implies that the action is the same as the CP1 but your description from direct experience sure seems to support that… Regardless, it sounds beyond promising as I believe anyone who has their learning rooted in acoustic pianos inclines towards a heavier action on a digital – I sure do, at least! Now that the CP5 is shipping I’m going to make a point to visit a store this weekend and see for myself… I have the benefit of still owning a Kawai MP8 as well as the Roland 700GX and we clearly have enough interest in this topic to really put together a comparison. Just keep in mind that when I’m referring to the MP8, I’m (and I believe most herein) are referring to the original MP8, not the MP8-II.
Sincerely appreciate your compliments and your post has me quite motivated now to make a direct comparison as well! Will update everyone SOON!
-Adrian
May 29th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
Ok Adrian- I was able to find an Original MP8 from a music store. They said they would have to get it shipped to them cause its the only one they have left in their whole chain and its a floor model which I assume it has been used a little bit. I believe I’m narrowing it down to either the cp5 or the mp8 depending on which weighted keys feels closer to the real thing. I’m not sure if should have them ship the original anyway or not. Should I get the mp8 or the cp5? I remember you saying you didn’t like the mp8-II because you couldn’t really dig into the keys? What else you didn’t like about the mp8-II? I’m kinda really waiting on your input since you’ve played with the mp8 quite a bit…. So no rush or anything but…. Hurry up and try out the cp5 already and make that blog! I need to make my decision in about a week! lol
-Preben
June 6th, 2010 at 11:36 am
Hi Everybody!
Michael (Toronto) here…. (I think we’re up to 3 Michael’s now!) I’m the one with the ADAM speakers…
I haven’t written in for a while… been busy but have also spent a LOT of time playing my CP-1… so here are some updated comments!
First, I must say that the action really grows on you in a great way… just feels slick, responsive, and for me a nice weight. A personal insight… I play a lot on acoustic pianos through the week (mostly uprights) and on a grand each Friday and Saturday at my restaurant gig which has the effect of keeping my technique up. At times I feel that my hands are ‘more alive’ than at others! When I play for 2 hour stretches at a time at the restaurant, I find my hands are stronger the next day. So when I sit at the CP-1 I find I can glide around better and ‘interface’ with the keyboard better. In other words, I feel that when your technique is ‘up’ you can take advantage of the excellent CP-1 response better. I don’t really think that the CP-1 action is lacking in anything, especially when my hand technique is ‘strong’ and ‘alert’. Some of you may interpret this as: “the CP-1 can only be played well (especially virtuosic playing) by virtuoso technique since the keyboard is lacking, maybe sluggish, etc…” NONSENSE! The CP-1 is EXTREMELY responsive and capable of amazingly fast performances and fast passages. Also fine gradations of sensitive dynamics.
On another note…. I don’t understand personally about “graded actions”. To be honest, I never really noticed that when I had a Yamaha C7 grand. Maybe I just never tuned into it closely… I’m sure the bass notes were slightly heavier than the high treble notes. Why is everyone so focused on a ‘graded’ action? In my opinion, I think I would prefer a non-graded action with a uniform touch to every single key. This makes more sense to me. I spoke to my piano technician about it and he tells me that the graded action is due to heavier hammers in the bass area are needed to move the heavier weighted bass strings gradually getting smaller up to the treble strings. Piano technicians compensate for the heavier keys by adjusting the lead weights in the keys. Here’s an interesting video by David Stanwood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cT5GOcprEY
Personally I want my action to feel uniform in weight top to bottom. It’s like going up and down a staircase with each stair the same distance requiring the same force from my legs, therefore being “transparent” as David Stanwood says. The CP-1 feels very uniform to me top to bottom. Also it sounds a note for you even if you play with an extremely light touch (slow velocity) unlike a real grand that might not sound the note if your too light (frustrating!).
On yet another note… I love the CP-1 for more than the remarkable acoustic pianos. The digital pianos are outstanding. The DX-7 pianos sound like having a real DX-7 (I used to own one!). But by far, the possible combinations (in pairs) are a plethora of professional piano-type sonorities. I’m not sure you’ll get all the subtleties with the CP-5. I think there is also more parameter control on the CP-1 pianos. Also, the three pedal system is excellent and very sensitive.
Also, the CONVENIENCE factor of having an amazing piano in a three second startup is about as close to sitting down at an acoustic and just playing it as it comes. The controls are right in front of you (I like to tweak hammer hardness mid performance, or even change the layered sound mid performance).
As for using the money to buy a baby grand instead???? Are you kidding me? A six thousand dollar used acoustic junkpile that goes out of tune and rattles like a bucket of bolts? Needs to be tuned often… only has one sound? (not bad if you own a great acoustic, i.e. Steinway, Bechstein, etc… try 50K)
The CP-1 simply has it all and more.
The CP-1 overdelivers on the price.
Each day I am even more convinced I chose right!
It’s the centerpiece of my digital world.
Michael (Toronto)
June 6th, 2010 at 11:53 am
Also check out the article about keyboard action:
http://www.callahanpiano.com/article_stanwood.htm
a quote from the article:
“New Touch Weight Metrology” is a method of units and measures that details how each piano action part affects the feel of the action. The system analyzes the working parts of an action to produce the cleanest, most precise touch. The goal was to make each key MORE PREDICTABLE AND THE INSTRUMENT AS EVEN AND UNIFORM AS POSSIBLE. In devising the system, David created a whole new field: “Piano Touchweight Technology.”
Michael (Toronto)
June 6th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
Once again, I offer this info regarding NON-graded action:
“He discovered that playing a piano was like riding a bicycle: a piano that offered a consistent touch allows the player to move smoothly and effortlessly through the music, just as a paved road offers the cyclist an easy glide. In contrast, a keyboard that feels inconsistent from note to note acts as a barrier between the music and the musician, the way a potholed road forces a rider to watch for hazards rather than just relaxing and enjoying the journey.”
http://www.mvtimes.com/marthas-vineyard/news/2009/11/12/david-stanwood.php
Michael
June 10th, 2010 at 9:28 am
Adrian, I just wanted to say thanks for putting this nerdy little site together. It has been very informative and seems much more objective than many forums on the web. I am not a musician, but my wife has been looking into getting a professional keyboard for the last couple months. We were able to get a hold of both a Yamaha CP5 and Roland Rd700gx last night for her to compare side by side. She liked both in terms of sound, but she is going to go with the Roland due to favoring the feel. To her it felt more like the piano she was brought up on. But it was a close call.
I personally think the worries over the non-graded action on the CP5 are a little overly paranoid. And from the other direction I think the real wooden keys are nice but more for marketing. I think it really comes down to personal preference. For her, the Roland action was a bit smoother.
From a non-musician opinion on the user interface, I thought that the Roland was much simpler and more intuitive. Although I’m sure if one took the time to read through the CP5 manual, it could easily be figured out.
Thanks for the good information on your site!
June 21st, 2010 at 10:43 am
Michael:
What he’s referring to is inconsistency between adjacent notes, which is indeed very disturbing because it’s not predictable. But a gradual change in weight from top to bottom is very predictable by your hands, even if you don’t do it consciously. Also, even if the weight was indeed the same from top to bottom, with the same velocity the volume of a note is different between low and high notes: so your hands would still have to understand the difference between low and high notes.
The only convincing reason to avoid graded actions would be that it makes keyboard splits and transpositions more transparent since the action doesn’t depend on the position (but on the flip side you could argue that a graded keyboard gives you freedom to vary the action slightly by transposing).
June 27th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
In terms of graded vs non-graded actions, my thinking turns to “constants” vs “non-constants”. When I look at the keyboard I see keys that are equally sized (equal white key widths and equal black key widths) although the black key placements are slightly varied transversing the whites (but consistently and predictably so). This is a constant and I can rely on it when playing not to change.
Without turning on the power to the CP-1, I find that the key resistance is consistent key to key (non-graded) and therefore very predictable and “constant”. I think that the weight of the keys should be constant and perfectly predictable key to key even though the volume output may vary (i.e. the bass notes are louder). Where the volume has more potential loudness, well I’ll deal with that using the same “constant” key weight! I suppose it’s a personal preference thing, much like a carpenter who uses smaller and larger hammers (with different weights) to pound in different sized nails! Or the carpenter who just sticks to one medium sized hammer.
I find just thinking about this issue (graded vs non-graded actions) a bit complex, but my hunch is that the keyboard action should be a “constant” weight ideally….don’t you think? It’s one of the control parameters you DON’T want changing, even if only gradually up the keyboard. After all wouldn’t you want the keys to consistently be interfaced with your finger strength (which has a “constant” set range of velocity/strength capability)? This makes more sense to me, and I look forward to any interesting comments especially by piano technicians and physics-minded people!
Happy music making everyone!
Michael (Toronto)
June 27th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
Check out this site on Stanwood’s cool “friction” invention for piano actions!
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5125309.html
Quote from webpage:
“To a pianist, it is important that the pressure required to depress the piano keys feel uniform across the keyboard. If EVERY KEY FEELS ALIKE (my emphasis), the pianist can exert greater control over the volume of the musical tones produced, making the piano easier to play as well as allowing the pianist to play more expressively. For instance, if each key requires the same pressure to produce a given volume, the pianist can easily play a series of notes at the same volume by applying the same pressure to each key. If, on the other hand, each key requires a different pressure to produce a given volume, the pianist has the difficult task of learning how much pressure to apply to each key at a particular piano in order to play a series of notes at the same volume. Therefore it is considered desirable to build a piano action so that there is uniform “feel” in EACH key. “
July 9th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
Like I said I think he’s not talking about having mathematically constant pressure between the low A and the high C, but about having consistent pressure between notes that are close to each other. This is hard to do on a wooden piano due to the complexity of the mechanics and the variability of the wood, but it’s a crucial property for the piano to be easy to play (you don’t want a uniform run of notes to accent every other note because of key weight differences). Moreover, if D3 is 10% lighter than C3, you’re going to hear the difference because they sound a lot alike and therefore the louder note will stand out. But if C6 is 10% lighter than C3, the sounds are so different anyway that any comparison is moot. Not that their relative velocities don’t matter: but you will have so much variability between the sound of a C6 on one piano and on another that you will already have to adjust the relative velocities to the sound of the piano. So if the keys also feel slightly different, it won’t matter so much: it won’t be any harder to compensate for those two variables than to compensate just for the sound.
So how the pressure varies across several octaves is mostly a matter of taste, as you say. By the way, you could argue the same about volume: why not design pianos so that the SPL of all notes be constant all over the keyboard at the same velocity? It would be an arbitrary choice, but not necessarily the most pleasing musically (since the ear is more sensitive to some frequencies): therefore the SPL is not constant, but is designed to vary in a way that helps expressivity. Why not do this for key weight too? Since the ear can’t hear fast notes as accurately in the lower registers, why not make them slightly heavier to give them slightly more control? (since low notes have higher sustain and tend to be pedaled, control can also be more important)
Note that I’m not really arguing that graded keyboards are a must (I haven’t even tried the CP1), just saying that you shouldn’t think that graded keyboards are a bad thing based on a misinterpretation of Stanwood’s work.